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  You are here:  Magazine and Events » Online Resources » Message Boards
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  PassageMaker Message Boards  Discussions  General Discuss...  Florida Bay Coaster sinks in Chesapeake
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New Post 8/22/2008 8:05 AM
  FF
1418 posts
1st Level Poster


Re: Florida Bay Coaster sinks in Chesapeake 
Yeah, "once it goes over far enough" could be said for any ship or boat unless it is specifically designed otherwise....like the CG rescue boats that are self-righting.  The full quote is a nonsensical statement as there is no "ultimate stability", as inferred here, as any boat can "go over far enough".

I have personally been on sail boats that were healed far enough that the spreaders were able to touch the water.They ALL came back!

I would guess you have never sailed , or seen a sailboat BUT ALL the sailboats that venture offshore can go MORE than 90deg with ease.

Or at least with out floundering.Many marine motorists have balast in the bilge to prevent "too far".

To go outside with a box boat with onlt
inital  stability is simply a  gamble . Have most folks survived ? Sure .

The question is what angle of heel is THE END ?, and what sort of sea surface is required to simply  toss the boat over?

Destroyers and cruise ships are stable enough not to worry about a mere wave form tilting the boat beyond recovery.

But a 20 ft beam only needs a large enough wave to get the momentum working in the WRONG direction to visit  Davy Jones.

Folks have crossed the atlantic in 8 or 9ft boats , but not in flat bottomed boats.

FF






 
New Post 8/22/2008 8:43 AM
  Libertarian
185 posts
10th Level Poster


Re: Florida Bay Coaster sinks in Chesapeake 
Modified By Libertarian  on 8/22/2008 8:25:12 AM)
My apologies on the 30' tall comment.  I'm not a reporter for the AP, ferchrissakes, checking every fact for its truthfulness. lol  But the 30' comment didn't come from the captain of the boat that sank.  Rather, it was a number that somebody here at the boat's home port said when talking about how much the boat rolled during last year's Parade of Lights when passengers on the top deck all went to one side and then the other.  If I recall, he mentioned that the gunnel of the aft deck dipped in the water every time the passengers went to one side of the deck.  Having seen it many times from the dock, it certainly looked like there was a 30' air draft.

 Gamekeeper wrote

Can you give us a link to the story reporting this accident? I am most interested. When and where did this happen? I can't seem to find anything about it on the web.

J.

Hi.  Sorry it took so long to reply.
I don't know if there is an online story about it.  The boat belonged to a fellow club member and the person who told me about the circumstances was the captain.  It happened on the Chesapeake, up near the Bay Bridge, I believe.  The young son onboard was a real hero.  He popped off the mayday call just shortly before the boat went under and was able to open the pilothouse doors so the family could escape.

 ralphyost wrote
One has to question why this boat was out on open water and not tied to the dock, or, seeking shelter AHEAD of the storm.
This storm happened on a day when no storms were in the forecast, if I recall.  Once the weather started to get nasty, they began steaming for the nearest safe spot--the bridge--when the storm struck.

One noteworthy point is  that the captain has a real government-issued license.  I guess the lesson here is that a licensed captain in an extremely stable vessel doesn't guarantee that the boat will stay afloat.

 
New Post 8/22/2008 10:05 AM
  Peter B
550 posts
6th Level Poster


Re: Florida Bay Coaster sinks in Chesapeake 
Modified By Peter B  on 8/22/2008 9:11:06 AM)
My understanding of stabilty, is regardless of what initial form stability the hull shape may give, and that does vary, the ultimate stability of a vessel (power or sail) is a function of the distance between the centre of buoyancy, and the centre of mass (gravity, if you like).  As the boat heels, this diminishes slowly until tipping point when they essentially converge.  I have talked to the owner  of a 39 foot Florida Bay Coaster, (admittedly one made in aluminium here in Queensland), and apparently they carry a lot of ballast.  In this case originally not enough.  Something discovered by sea trials, as it is the first and only one in aluminium so far, so the amount needed was uncertain compared to the all-steel versions, but adding more ballast made a big difference.  This, added to the high hull volume would give appreciable stability, as the superstructure extends the full beam for much of it, thus keeping a lever arm between the two centres for longer.
PB
 
New Post 8/22/2008 11:10 AM
  Daddyo
84 posts
No Ranking


Re: Florida Bay Coaster sinks in Chesapeake 
Jay,
I have enjoyed your designs both in St Michaels, Oxford as well as in Useppa. I was in Southport, NC last week and saw a green hulled steel boat (north sea style) with enclosed canoe stern named Victory hailing from Norfolk, was this one of your designs? If so could you send me more information on the design, is it available in a slightly larger design?
Regards,
Mark Bowerman
 
New Post 8/22/2008 12:45 PM
  djmarchand
133 posts
10th Level Poster


Re: Florida Bay Coaster sinks in Chesapeake 

I think you are all missing the point of what "may" have happened. I say "may" because according to Benford's post the boat hasn't been found yet!!

The original poster noted "There was a crashing sound as the boat flopped over, so speculation has it that something (an unsecured TV, perhaps) went through one of the salon windows that was then underwater."

Somewhere on the Florida Bay Coaster's website, or maybe it is on the Benford site is a stability curve for one of his designs. It good shows initial positive stability dropping to a low point at 90 degrees and then rising dramatically to a peak at about 140 degrees and then to zero at 180. Don't quibble with the actual numbers, I am winging it from memory. The drop to a low point at 90 is when the hull is tipped over and before the superstructure stability begins to come into play. The superstructure bouyancy is huge on a boat like this and increases the righting force dramatically as it becomes submerged.

Many designers (blue water sailboats for example) don't take into account superstructure bouyancy when doing stability calculations. And for good reason. If the report is accurate, the salon window crashed, it went underwater and then flooded. This was probably at the point of minimum stability and so the boat layed over, took on water and finally sunk (maybe!!).

So Benford is right up to a point. The boat has tremendous stability as long as water tight integrity is maintained.

David

 
New Post 8/22/2008 12:51 PM
  Sarsfield
156 posts
10th Level Poster


Re: Florida Bay Coaster sinks in Chesapeake 
Modified By Sarsfield  on 8/22/2008 11:53:44 AM)

I find it interesting that no one has commented on Mr. Benford's assertion that that entire sinking incident is based on rumor.  Apparently no sunken  boat has been found and no referenced factual reports (TV, newspaper, police, or Coast Guard) been produced.  The entire incident seems to be of the "have you heard about the boat that sank?" type of word of mouth.  I spent a little time googling for a report on this and came up empty.  Gamekeeper was the only person to even ask for facts before making any decisions and he deserves an attaboy for it.

If Quentin's story of a boat rolling excessively because of passengers moving from side to side is true, my first reaction is that the boat was seriously overloaded, not that the boat was inherently unstable.   But then I'm not the type of person to blame the designer, the manufacturer, the dealer, the salesperson, and everyone else for my stupid mistakes.  (I'm not questioning your telling of the story, Quentin, but you did hear it second hand...you didn't see it yourself so we can only hope your source is accurate.) 

There haven't been many facts presented in this thread.  Only impressions, feelings, thoughts, and second-hand rumor.  Making disparaging conclusions of a boats sea-worthiness based on how it looks is intellectually dishonest.  And a bunch of well educated techie types should well know that form does not necessarily follow function.  (It's nice when it does, though.)

 

 
New Post 8/22/2008 3:22 PM
  Jay Benford
7 posts
No Ranking


Re: Florida Bay Coaster sinks in Chesapeake 

“Intellectually dishonest” indeed!...

 -

Here is a set of stability curves for an actual sistership to the alleged missing vessel.  The highest one  is with the tanks full. The middle one is the data as inclined.  The lower curve is with the tanks empty.  There were three of these 45’ Coasters built in about 1990, one right after another, each with slight variations in layout.  These curves were created from values measured on a vessel that had been in service for a decade and a half, with the associated accumulation of stuff and spares aboard.  The vessel in question had larger house volumes aloft – no aft deck off the master stateroom – and thus would have an even higher rise as the houses were immersed.  

The question raised about “a green hulled steel boat (north sea style) with enclosed canoe stern named Victory hailing from Norfolk” sounds like our 45’ Little Sindbad built by Custom Steel Boats that is being outfitted by the owner with some occasional professional help.  

The reference to the aluminum Coaster in Australia refers to one that we started designing in steel and ended up being built in aluminum.  And she appears to have been outfitted much more lightly than the ones built here.  Thus, the trim ballast can be gradually removed as additional outfitting, spares, and personal belongings are brought aboard.  

The assertion that no flat bottomed boats have crossed the Atlantic is simply not true.  All the large ships, including cruise liners, are flat bottomed.  My sailing dory designs are flat bottomed and many of them have crossed – and are crossing – major oceans.  

I am looking forward to seeing more facts brought forth so that we can all learn how this story came to be circulated. Presently, all we have is speculation – some not well informed.  “Just the facts, ma’am”….

 
New Post 8/22/2008 4:27 PM
  yachtbrokerguy
250 posts
www.yachtbrokerguy.comcom
9th Level Poster


Re: Florida Bay Coaster sinks in Chesapeake 

I saw this thread when it first came on the board. Since I have a 55' Florida Bay Coaster for sale right outside my office ( I can see it out my window) I have a little more interest then others. I did some Google research and could not find anything. I found other incidents from around the world, and I know it is always big news in the local papers and TV websites when anything happens like a sinking boat here in the Boating Capital of the US.

So the next day I called Jay Benford to ask what he could tell me. He told me he was "skeptical." I also wondered how a salvage company could not find a boat like that in the relatively shallow waters of a bay.  I told him about the post here on this message board and suggested he might post a reply.  I am glad to see he has added his comments here. I too, would like to find out more about this story.

 
New Post 8/22/2008 5:26 PM
  Phil/Fill
1419 posts
1st Level Poster


Re: Florida Bay Coaster sinks in Chesapeake 

P.S. To Phil/Fill... You are probably a nice person and a competent boater with years of cruising experience under your belt. I 'm sure you have an ocean going vessel we would all be jealous of.... but I am insulted that you would call my boat a dock queen and only good in protected waters because that is just not factual. This boat has been to St. Thomas, the Bahamas and its still floating (upright, I might add). Curt Van Loon 50' m/v Steel Magnolia.

 

 

Curt, I apologies if you took the term Dock Queen negatively.   There is/was no negative connotation meant by the term Dock Queen.  The term Dock Queen has been used on the PMM sight for about 10 years which mean a boat that is well maintained but seldom leaves the dock and/or does not leave the dock for long.  Actually the terms was first used to describe my old ugly trawler as we seldom leave the dock and if we do not for long.   Dock Queen has no inference as to capability/stability. 

 

As protect water boat that up for discussion and opinion.  The Florida Bay I went on, home port is Sitka Alaska, which means it does have the capability and stability of doing the Left Side In Side Passage, which is protected water. It sounds like your and my definition of protect water might be different. Anyway,  my opinion and impression it is/was a protected water boat for several reason other than just preceived stability. 

 

 

  

 
New Post 8/22/2008 6:58 PM
  Libertarian
185 posts
10th Level Poster


Re: Florida Bay Coaster sinks in Chesapeake 
Modified By Libertarian  on 8/22/2008 6:01:46 PM)

To clarify: the captain and owner of the vessel and her family are friends of mine and she is a member of my yacht club.  I didn't just "hear this from somebody's uncle's cousin's sister's best friend's daughter-in-law."  She told me that the boat sank in the Chesapeake after they were caught in a storm and nailed by wind and waves.  Suddenly, the boat went sideways, there was a crashing sound, and the boat quickly filled with water.  The son saved their lives by opening the pilothouse door, something that the parents were apparently unable to do.  I have no additional particulars about why the parents couldn't open the door, but can ask the next time I see my friends.  I do know, however, that the club is discussing bestowing on the son some sort of decoration for heroism.  Ironically, the watertight doors were dogged closed because of the storm.  This may be an instance where a serious piece of marine hardware generally favored by blue water types like FF might have cost them their lives had the son not been present.  That observation (minus the FF part, for the nitpickers among us. lol) was made by the captain, btw.

After the captain left the vessel, it sank very quickly.  The cats were lost.  The sailing dinghy floated free after the boat fell over but it was still in the vicinity when the mothership sank.  Irony Number 2: not fully securing the sailing dinghy prior to the storm provided them with a lifeboat of sorts when the boat went down.  They climbed aboard the dinghy and were picked up by somebody responding to the mayday that the son broadcast minutes before the boat sank.

The Army Corps of Engineers was unable to find the boat, but the captain says they were mostly concerned that it wasn't clogging up the shipping channel.  The shipping channel in that area has more than 100' or so of depth; the captain said they were in 30' or so of water the last time she recalls looking at the sounder.  The last news I heard was that the boat has not been recovered.  The captain and her family gave up their slip at the club though.  As a friend of the family, I can't take seriously any speculation that the boat didn't actually sink.

 
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